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1.4 16v displacement size increase

diesel_rioter
  • Themenstarter
diesel_rioter's

Hello from italy, forgive my english.

I have a 2010 polo 6r 1.4 (cbbg) which is now over 300,000km. It has never been quick (neither as new car), but now, after so many kilometers, it has become really painful, especially when driving uphill. It has no technical problem, even the oil consumption is low; but I can't stand this polo anymore.

Now, in my opinion, this polo would have been perfect if it had fitted the ubiquitous 2.0L 8 valve 116ps engine that the 2001 fabia 1 received. The polo is very heavy, it's not a 700kg car anymore, but the engine remained only 1.4...
By comparing videos on youtube, I saw that the gearing of my polo model and one of the fabia 1 2.0 are identical, this means that it is the polo that has an engine that is too much small.

So I would like to increase the displacement up to at least 1.8 (which, considering the 16 valves, should be equivalent to a 2.0 8v). Playing with the catalog, so far I have only found a 1.6 16v that runs on LPG (polo 1.6 LPG), but the gain would be too much small, I need a longer stroke (and of course bigger pistons' bore); and in the catalog it is not clear whether the increased stroke of the 1.6 is compensated by shorter connecting rods or by a longer height block.
Also, I ABSOLUTELY need to not to increase the RPMs, I need only torque.

An important thing is that this modification must be totally "stealth": the block must remain the original one; in order to compensate a longer stroke I would use some customized connecting rods (eventually I will look for an engineer to reduce their length and I know that there are some companies which make customised rods).
The cylinder head could be not the original one but it must LOOK the same of the original when seen from the outside, but the sensors of the head must remain the same because even the electronics must be the original one.
The only way to uncover this mod must be the disassembly of the engine with analysis, or the rolling test bench.

Did anyone here ever do something like this? I would like to know which parts I should get, also in order to make myself a budget ...

Now a pre-empitive answer for a question I'm sure every person with a little of common sense would ask me: "Why don't you just get a new or a different car?"
Well, I can't do so for "reasons". If somebody wants to know, I can annoy you with all the issues an italian has when he gets or has a car.

So... any idea?

CIAO



Hi there,
You have quite high demands if the engine is to remain the same externally.
Of course, you can achieve more displacement with special pistons, crankshafts and connecting rods, but the effort is in no relation to the profit.
In addition, I don't know whether it is possible to legally drive another diesel engine from the VW Group in Italy.
A 2.0L diesel from an accident vehicle would be ideal


That is the task of the thread creator, to make a conversion that is not visible from the outside.

Precisely because this is about diesel engines, you won't get much input here. Diesel tuning is not so widespread here in the forum.

The first thing you do with a diesel is to increase the injection quantities or times. That brings torque.

If you want more, you will have to acquire the knowledge of what works and what doesn't work yourself.

But before you lose heart, try to extend your audience here in the forum by posting your request in German.

deepl.com is a powerful translator that produces fluent, meaningful text.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)



Hi I am also not an expert in 'modern' diesel engines but I guess it will be quite a challenge to modify bore & stoke that much while using the same block.

I'd prefer to use rods & pistons close to original dimensions but use high durable sleeves (like darton sleeves) in the block.
To raise the torqe in a proper way I'd more try to modify the injection as well as the turbocharger. With a high durable block I can imagine it will be possible to 'give' the engine comparable power.

Related to your initial issue I can imagine that the loss of power is mainly driven by worn injectors.

Sebastian


hello

cbbg = not Polo

CBBA + CBBB = 2,0 diesel

diesel engine > wikipedia polo 6r 1,2 liter CFWA / 1,6 liter CAYA / CAYB / CAYC

leute , er wird nen benziner haben > keinen diesel

er wird einen C G G B haben = 1400er 86 ps

Mfg Kai


I'd "simply" go for another (more powerful) engine of another 6R (and you might investigate if you then also need other parts in a more powerful version e.g. the brakes).

But at least from germany i know that it's not allowed to throw in an engine that has a worse exhaust gas rating than the one you initially had in your car ( your car, not any 6R). This also counts for "tuning your engine". Worse exhaust emission standard (than original) = "votekick" from the tech. inspectors -> you should really check this in advance for IT.
On every-day-use ofc. nobody will see this, neither your family nor the polizia ... until there is a (yearly?) exhaust gas inspection (is this also mandatory in IT?)

The on my left shoulder tells me that it might be the cheapest way to buy a Polo that optically just looks like yours (including all the scratches and dimples ) but only with a bigger engine.

If you are highly pain-tolerant, want to do alot of ungrateful work and money isn't an issue for you, you might get a bit more hp out of your current block ... but don't expect wonders.
This isn't "making a new engine out of an old one" but rather "optimizing and customizing your HW/SW setup to get another 5-15% output power". But when you e.g. increase your compression you might not be able to use "normal Super 95" fuel (but need some special gasoline with a higher knock resistance).
This might also count for other not-that-stealthy-measures like adding a turbo/compressor.


Zitat:

leute , er wird nen benziner haben > keinen diesel

Mein Fehler, aus irgend einem unerfindlichem Grund war ich der Meinung daß es um nen Diesel geht... -> sein Name

Und trotzdem; es macht keinen Sinn nen 1400 aufzubohren, der Nutzen steht in keinem Verhältnis zur gewonnenen Leistung und Kosten.
Die kleinen Motörchen kann man nicht vernüftig mit Hubraum aufpeppen
wo bekommt man ne Kurbelwelle mit deutlich mehr Hub, die auch rein passt?
Bohrung wird bei nem Alublock nicht mehr viel zu gewinnen sein...

Alles in Allem, es bleibt ein Hirngespinnst...


diesel_rioter
  • Themenstarter
diesel_rioter's

Zitat:

hello
leute , er wird nen benziner haben > keinen diesel
er wird einen C G G B haben = 1400er 86 ps
Mfg Kai


You got it right
Oh, ok, sorry, I should have specified that my engine is the 1.4 16v gasoline type, naturally asp.
If I had a turbocharger in my car, I would have not problems on digging out more ps, whatever engine in it.
It's my name that maybe drove you to mistake. My polo is my daily driver, but in the past I have had diesel powered T-series, that had been all banned. I'm very angry for that, and diesel is still the best available.

I read the wiki in german (google translator) and I found out that the ea111 was designed to be 1300, when the polo was a cute small city-wagon weighting just 700kg, but later was bored up to 1.6, which is its max and however not enough for a polo 6r. So, even if I can get customised pistons, I will weak the cylinders too much, and such cyls are integrated in the tiny alloy block. Looks like that the 1.600 size is the end of the line. Furthermore, the stock 1.6 is amost 11:1 of compression ratio, so I bet it needs the 98 superplus.
I really don't see a gateway: this stupid tiny engine gives no options.


diesel_rioter
  • Themenstarter
diesel_rioter's

Now why I was about this messy thing: the context. Read only if you can understand an aproximative english and have spare time

I don't want to get rid of my polo because, excluded the engine, it's still perfect but I won't get 100 euro out of it. The body was never crashed and it's rust free. Also I don't wanna buy a brand new car, it's too much expensive and the offer has become a joke. For example, the more the cars grow, the smaller the engines become, and everything is overpriced. If I buy an used polo, like a 1.2tsi sold at 12.000, I can get a car that is identical to the mine but can be crashed and maybe with a worn out engine; while I'm throwing away my perfect vw bodyshell.
So I thought that budgeting <5.000 euro to fix my own polo, in the way I wrote, could make sense; in that way my daily car could have been good also for longer trips or to go to the mountain.

I want to add: a normal person living into a normal country would have just bought another used car which is more suitable for trips.

I looked for a volvo TDI estate (to pass it as historic, lately), because they have the same engine of the venerable T4, that I know very well (we had 2 of them, both progressively banned).
But I had to pay like 2000 euro for the car, 1000/1500 euro for a trip in Germany (including insured numberplates) because here such cars are inexistent since ppl were forced to junk them (so they went to eastern europe) and also i want a tow bar and in germany all the cars I found have it, while here not and if you want to add it, you have to pay at least 1500 euro! While the transport admin. is late of a year to register this mod (no jokes, an agency told me they were homologating the ones installed 10 months before!)
And than add:
- 600 of tax "just because I bought it": I deserve to be punished for such an action(yeah,...),
- 400 yearly as property tax (calculated over the kw and euro norm),
- 800 euro for insurance (and I have best records!).

Just the first year, I would have been near to the 5000 euro for a customised 1.4 for my polo, that could solve a lot (not tow a caravan... but I could settle with that).
And I'm not considering the rust due to the german salty winters that surely have ruined the volvo bodyshell.
A volvo that, however, is banned here (excluding saturdays and sundays).

So, well,...
No. I pay the full tax and insurance, but can drive it mostly when you stay at home.
No-thank-you.

That's why I came here asking you for help about a possible solution for my polo.



diesel_rioter
  • Themenstarter
diesel_rioter's

Grandpa
Zitat:

In addition, I don't know whether it is possible to legally drive another diesel engine from the VW Group in Italy.

Well, we all know that everybody cheated. And it's normal because the demands were too high. You can see in youtube that our national flagship, (which is not the ferrari or lambos, but is) the fiat ducato, has cheated engines as well. Idem MB, BMW, and everybody. VW was targeted for reasons,... and we see why rightnow.

Hokuspokus
Zitat:
That is the task of the thread creator, to make a conversion that is not visible from the outside.

Yep, I need to pass the tecknik check without anybody to notice the difference. Also, I don't need a lot of power.

[MSRS
  • Joey
    Zitat:
    But at least from germany i know that it's not allowed to throw in an engine that has a worse exhaust gas rating than the one you initially had in your car ( your car, not any 6R). This also counts for "tuning your engine". Worse exhaust emission standard (than original) = "votekick" from the tech. inspectors -> you should really check this in advance for IT.

    Of course I wouldn't register such mod, and during the technik check (1 every 2 years) hardly the exaust test machine can notice something like this, it's just some more displacement that the kat can surely deal with (however my kat is the original one and I think that after 300k km is already dead).

    Zitat:
    This might also count for other not-that-stealthy-measures like adding a turbo/compressor.

    Turbos are out of reach, they are the best way to get caught coz there's a piece that is not supposed to be there.

    Believe me, I would be happy if the 20% of what the tuv allows you germans to do was possible here.
    For exampe, in germany you can PROBLEMLESS install a different engine from the one stock in your car if such engine was installed in the same cars of the yours by the carmaker. If I had the german passport (smth very requested nowdays), I would have just bought a crashed TSI 1.2 and installed the engine in my car. Simple as that.
    Here you can do literally nothing. The employees of the civil transportation administration which are public employees (not like the tuv), are lazy asses who don't want to take responsibility for you, going from 195 to 205 tires. Also the law is written to keep the situation in such way. Years ago, the govt of the time tried to change something (to copy germany, uk, spain, and the rest), and the oppositions compactly jumped up like a compressed coil spring and stopped the change with a long series of rethorical discourses about thre italian traditiondo deal with such topics and how tuning and car mods kill.

    If I know a german guy who could fakely buy my polo from me, register it with german plates and register the engine installation, to fakely sell it back to me I would be all happy.

    Actually, you guys should think to set some small business to help us with agencies for the execution of operations like this one or tuning or van conversions... so that we poor oppressed pizzaioli can circumvent our tyrants and get our works legally done.
    If a car is regoular in germany they are FORCED to accept it and there's nothing they can do to stop us.


  • Also do not see a real chance to give the engine some more torque. Even the 1.6 as you'd already saied is not a proper base for a invisible tuning.

    In case of Volvo:
    I'd not prefer the old 5 cylinder diesel engines, that are also used at VW. Later built 5 cylinder are much better and more powerful. You could also check for a turbocharged petrol engine & do an LPG conversion.

    The 1.9 Diesel used in the old V40 is also very cheap & rigid.
    Engines from Ford are not that great, excepti the 3.2 & T6AWD used in V70, S80 & XCs.

    Another alternative, even if an unpopular one would be the Opel Insignia as 2.0 Diesel, the one with 163HP as FWD.


    Sebastian


    Zitat:

    If I know a german guy who could fakely buy my polo from me, register it with german plates and register the engine installation, to fakely sell it back to me I would be all happy.


    That would be the best. Don't you happen to have German relatives? Or a German Shepherd?

    In Germany it would be at least technically and officially possible to legally operate the GTI engine with Torbo, since it is originally installed in the Polo.

    If you don't have a good friend, it's just a dream ...


    diesel_rioter
    • Themenstarter
    diesel_rioter's

    Zitat:

    I'd not prefer the old 5 cylinder diesel engines, that are also used at VW. Later built 5 cylinder are much better and more powerful.


    Bro, in no way that gasoline converted in diesel OPEN DECK alloy engine (aka the modular white block converted in diesel) can be, I say not better, but even equal to the glorious closed deck gray cast iron blcok vw R5 TDI with the ve-pump. _Such engine is the only reason I could be interested into a "volvo". In the italian volvo forum is still the engine that lasts longer, and has no issues for at least 300000km (but a guy went over 700.000 years ago, with regoular oil changes only). I love how it's a pain for those funboys to admit it.
    It's THE everlasting engine; theres a video in youtube of a german car dealer who bought a t4 88ps with more than 900.000km and it still runs great. It's a 2800kg van, not a 1500kg estate.

    However such newer cars you listed (common rail 5 cyl from volvo) can't be converted into oldtimers, so I would pay in taxes and insurance more than what I could pay for the car itself.


    diesel_rioter
    • Themenstarter
    diesel_rioter's

    Zitat:

    That would be the best. Don't you happen to have German relatives? Or a German Shepherd?


    No, that's why I wrote that you guys should open small business to help us doing so...

    Btw, wanna be friends?



    For 5000 Bucks it must be possible to run a deal with a german tuner such like röttele.


    Zitat:

    However such newer cars you listed (common rail 5 cyl from volvo) can't be converted into oldtimers, so I would pay in taxes and insurance more than what I could pay for the car itself.


    That's a fully diffrent perspective.... But for sure.
    Have had a V70T6 a couple of years ago. I wanted to have a used car for 200.000km that allows driving at least 1 hour 200km/h continuosly without any impact or long term damage.

    I got this car with 145tkm and it took me only fuel, oil, some dampers & brakes during this time. At 28tkm it got another mapping (286PS 400Nm to ~310PS 470Nm)
    Then 3.5 years later at 340tkm it got a new turbo and an exchanged Automatic gearbox.
    After checking the old gearbox, have found the only defect... one small broken edge on the valebody, no worn bearings, no worn clutches....

    If the exchange of the gearbox would went smooth, I'd still drive it.
    But the 'new gearbox did not run at first & I needed a car for my business...

    Sebastian




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